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I was recently invited to be a guest on a podcast where we had a very honest conversation about entrepreneurship, business failure, leadership, family business dynamics & what it really takes to build a business that can grow without destroying the owner in the process.
We covered the glamorous version of entrepreneurship, but we also spoke about the brutal version. The moments when everything falls apart, the lessons you only learn when the wheels come off & the decisions you have to make when there is no easy or comfortable option.
Most importantly, we explored how business owners can create more clarity, accountability & traction by introducing a simple operating system, building the right leadership team & learning to let go.
Because most entrepreneurs do not fail because they are lazy or unwilling to work. They fail because they are trying to carry too much, for too long, without enough structure or support.
The Bit People Do Not Always See
I have had some wonderful successes in business. I have also had two massive train wrecks.
At one point, I lost everything. My house, my Porsche, my motorbike, the lot. That is not the shiny LinkedIn version of entrepreneurship, but it is the real version, & it shaped the way I now work with business owners.
One of those failures happened after I bought into a business, merged it with my existing company & believed everything was going reasonably well. Then I received a phone call from the tax department, which is rarely the beginning of a great day.
I discovered there was a large overdue PAYE bill, followed by an overdue GST bill. Suddenly, we were looking at more than $200,000 owed. The optimist in me initially thought, “It is just a number. We can work through this.”
Then our biggest client, which represented around 85% of our revenue, decided to bring everything in-house. That was the card that brought the whole house down.
We had 14 staff & fought hard to save the business, but eventually I had to take advice from a mentor, bring in receivers & do the right thing. It was heartbreaking, not simply because I had failed, but because other people were affected.
That is the part nobody tells you about business failure. It is never only financial. It is emotional, relational & deeply personal. You feel responsible for the people who trusted you, the promises you made & the future you thought you were building together.
Plan for the Worst While You Are Still Calm
One of the biggest lessons I took from that experience was the importance of planning for the worst while you are still in a good headspace.
When you are stressed, overwhelmed & panicking, you rarely make your best decisions. You scramble, react & convince yourself you can fix things that may already be beyond fixing. You keep pouring more money, time & energy into the situation because you are emotionally attached to the outcome.
A strong business operating system can help prevent the business from reaching that point. It creates structure around how the leadership team monitors performance, raises concerns, solves Issues & makes decisions before everything becomes urgent.
EOS®, the Entrepreneurial Operating System®, gives leadership teams a practical way to establish clarity, define accountabilities, measure progress, solve Issues & remain focused on what matters most.
It does not remove every risk. Nothing does. What it provides is a framework that helps business owners & leadership teams make better decisions while they still have choices, rather than waiting until the only options left are painful ones.
Why Entrepreneurs Struggle to Let Go
Most founders, entrepreneurs & Visionaries have something in common. We are control freaks. I say that with love because I am one too.
We start businesses because we can see what is possible. We notice how something could be improved, spot opportunities other people miss & have a slightly unrealistic belief that we can make almost anything happen if we work hard enough.
That drive is a superpower, but it can also become a serious problem. The same energy that starts the business can eventually become the thing that limits it.
Founders often become the bottleneck because they hold too much information in their heads, make too many decisions, jump into too many conversations & rescue too many people. They continue solving Issues that should be owned & resolved by the leadership team.
Eventually, the business becomes dependent on the founder rather than strengthened by them. Decisions slow down, capable people stop taking ownership & growth begins to feel heavier than it should.
Clarity Creates Confidence
One of the most common things I see in growing businesses is a founder who believes the vision is completely clear, while the leadership team sees a very different picture.
The team may be working incredibly hard, but they are not necessarily working from the same page. The business might have Core Values® written somewhere, a business plan, an organisational chart or even a beautifully designed document that nobody ever looks at.
However, when you ask individual leadership team members where the business is heading, what matters most, who is accountable for what or what must be achieved during the next 90 days, their answers often vary wildly.
That lack of shared clarity is dangerous because people begin making decisions based on their own assumptions. They can all be intelligent, committed & well-intentioned, yet still pull the business in different directions.
Within EOS®, tools such as the Vision/Traction Organizer® help the leadership team answer the important questions together. Who are we? Where are we going? What are our Core Values®? What is our Core Focus®? What is our 10-Year Target®? What does success look like this year? What are our most important Rocks for the next 90 days? Who owns what? Which Issues must be solved?
Clarity creates confidence because everyone can finally see the same game, understand the priorities & make decisions from a shared foundation.
Every Business Needs Rules of the Game
I often describe an operating system as the rules of the game.
We enjoy sport because we understand how the game works. We know how to win, how the score is calculated, when somebody has crossed a line & what role each player is expected to perform.
Business should be no different. A healthy business needs clear rules around roles, accountability, decision-making, meetings, measurables, ownership, values & priorities. Without those rules, people tend to make decisions emotionally or rely on whatever has happened in the past.
This becomes particularly important in a family business, where relationships, history, ownership & employment can become tangled together.
The Harvard 3 Circle Family Business Model is useful because it separates three distinct systems: family, business & ownership. Although the circles often overlap, they should not be treated as though they are the same thing.
Being part of the family does not automatically mean someone should lead the business. Owning shares does not necessarily mean someone should have an operational role. Working in the business does not automatically give someone the right to participate in ownership decisions.
When families blur these boundaries, emotion leaks into business decisions & business tension follows people home. When the circles are clearly understood, families can have better conversations, make stronger decisions & protect both the relationships & the business.
Right People, Right Seats
Another major theme in the podcast was structure.
Businesses often grow organically rather than deliberately. Someone begins by doing one job, picks up another responsibility because nobody else is doing it, then inherits three more areas because they happen to be capable.
Before long, the structure is a mess. People are sitting in seats they were never designed for, accountability is unclear & the founder remains involved in almost every decision. The leadership team may be too large, too small or not truly functioning as a leadership team at all.
This is where the Accountability Chart® becomes powerful. It is not simply an organisational chart & it is not built around titles. It begins by asking what structure the business needs for its next stage of growth, what the essential functions are & who should be accountable for each seat.
Only after the right structure has been designed should the business decide who belongs in each role. Do they get it, want it & have the capacity to do it?
Structure first. People second.
That might sound harsh, but it is one of the kindest things you can do for a business & its people. When the structure is clear, people understand where they fit, what they own, how their work contributes & what success looks like.
The Visionary & Integrator Relationship
We also spoke about the Visionary & Integrator relationship, which is one of my favourite topics because I have lived it, seen it, taught it & benefited from it myself.
The Visionary is often the founder or entrepreneurial leader. They bring the big ideas, see the future, spot opportunities & create energy, possibility & momentum.
They can also have too many ideas, change direction too frequently & unintentionally create chaos for the team. What feels exciting to the Visionary can feel exhausting to everybody responsible for turning those ideas into reality.
The Integrator is the person who brings discipline, focus & follow-through. They filter ideas, lead the leadership team, coordinate execution, hold people accountable & help turn the Visionary’s best thinking into something the business can actually deliver.
A strong Visionary/Integrator® relationship is a little like a strong marriage. It is not always easy or comfortable, but it can be incredibly powerful when both people respect their different roles.
The Visionary needs the Integrator to create focus & consistency. The Integrator needs the Visionary to keep creating possibility. Together, they allow the business to move faster without exhausting the team or making the founder responsible for everything.
Stop Creating Arsonists
One of the points I made during the podcast was that some founders become addicted to firefighting.
They rush in, save the day, solve the problem & enjoy the quick dopamine hit that comes from being needed. Then they wonder why the same fires keep breaking out.
Here is the uncomfortable truth. If you are constantly fighting fires, you may also be creating arsonists.
Not intentionally, of course. But when the team learns that every difficult problem will eventually be escalated to the founder, people stop developing the confidence & capability to solve Issues themselves.
When people know you will jump in, they let you. When they fear your reaction, they hide Issues. When they believe you are too busy to listen, they avoid telling you the truth until the problem becomes impossible to ignore.
Healthy leadership teams need trust, accountability & a consistent process for solving Issues. EOS® uses IDS®, which stands for Identify, Discuss, Solve. The purpose is not to spend hours talking around the problem. It is to identify the real Issue, discuss the relevant facts, solve it properly & make it go away forever.
The Power of a 90-Day Plan
Long-term vision matters because you need to know where the business is going. However, the real progress happens in the next 90 days.
In EOS®, Rocks are the three to seven most important priorities for the quarter. They are not business-as-usual tasks. Business as usual is the work required to keep the business running, while Rocks are the priorities that move the organisation forward.
A Rock might involve improving a system, entering a new market, fixing a broken process, strengthening the leadership team, building a better Scorecard®, documenting a core process or solving a long-term structural Issue.
The real power comes from focus. Ninety days goes quickly, & 13 weeks disappears before most teams realise it. The leadership team must decide which few things matter most during that period.
Not everything. Not the enormous wish list. Not every exciting new idea the Visionary had on the drive to work.
The question is simply: Which priorities will make the greatest difference to the business during the next 90 days?
That is how a business builds traction. It turns the long-term vision into a small number of clear, owned & achievable commitments.
Business Failure Is Not the End
We spoke about resilience towards the end of the podcast.
Failure hurts. There is no point pretending otherwise or wrapping it in a cheerful quote about learning opportunities while somebody is standing in the wreckage.
However, failure can shape you. It teaches you what matters, what not to repeat & why clarity, cash, structure, accountability, humility & good people are so important.
After my first major failure, I did not immediately bounce back into another business. I took a corporate role for a while, rebuilt my confidence, paid down debt & licked my wounds.
Eventually, I realised I could not remain in corporate life. It simply was not me, so I returned to business. Not because it was easy, but because building, improving, creating & solving are part of who I am.
Many entrepreneurs are wired that way. The goal is not to remove that drive. The goal is to surround it with enough structure, discipline & support that it does not become destructive.
You Do Not Have to Do It Alone
One of the greatest myths in entrepreneurship is that doing everything alone is somehow more noble.
It is not. It is usually just harder, slower & far more painful.
Every business owner needs support, whether that comes from a coach, mentor, strong leadership team, peer group or clear business operating system.
For some businesses, support may also include a Fractional Integrator, COO, CFO, Chief of Staff or another experienced fractional executive who can step into the business part-time & provide leadership without the cost or commitment of a full-time executive.
The right support helps the founder let go without losing visibility or control. It allows the leadership team to step up, strengthens accountability & makes the business less dependent on one person.
That is when the business begins to grow up.
Final Thought
Business is not meant to be chaos with an ABN. It is meant to be a system.
It is a living, breathing, deeply human system, but it still needs structure. When the business has a clear vision, the right people, meaningful data, an effective Issues-solving rhythm, consistent processes & disciplined traction habits, it becomes easier to lead.
Not easy. Easier.
That distinction matters because most owners did not start their business because they wanted to become trapped by it. They started because they wanted to build something meaningful, create opportunities & make a difference.
The real work is learning to build that business in a way that does not require you to carry the whole thing forever.
Watch the video clip above or listen to the full podcast to hear the complete conversation.
Podcast Trasncript:
Debra Chantry-Taylor’s Journey and Entrepreneurship’s True Face
Yeah, thank you for being on the show.
It’s been a, it’s been a very interesting experience talking to people across the world and especially when trying to coordinate the times and everything.
So you’re kind of coming in from New Zealand right now.
0:12
Speaker 2
I’m actually in Melbourne right now.
I do.
I do live in New Zealand and Melbourne, but I’m in Melbourne right now.
0:18
Speaker 1
Very nice.
And then you’re coming in at 7:00 AM on your times, which is 5:00 PM our time.
So that’s kind of tells the the view is the difference and the dedication it takes to get up and actually do a podcast at 7:00 AM.
0:29
Speaker 2
So welcome.
Thank you.
Thank you.
0:32
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Do you want to tell the viewers a little bit about who you are and what you’re up to?
And we’ll start there and then.
0:39
Speaker 2
Absolutely.
So my name is Deborah.
I’m an entrepreneur.
I’m also an accredited family business advisor and an ES implementer.
And I have spent my entire life running businesses for other people, for myself and gone through some pretty major successes where I had all the toys, all of the the wonderful things that comes with success, but also to massive train wrecks where I lost everything, including my house, my Porsche, a motorbike in the works.
1:05
And so as a consequence, my passion is kind of helping entrepreneurs go, not having to go through those experiences that I’ve been through.
1:14
Speaker 1
That’s amazing.
And I think a lot of business owners, especially when they get started, they have this false understanding of what a business is actually going to be and how it’s going to end up right.
Whether it’s going to be a simple ride, whether it’s going to be easy.
And then as you’ve proven there, like you can literally crash and burn a couple of times and running a business.
1:34
And that’s OK, too, because I think a lot of people tend to go and think that it’s all about, you know, presenting as like this polished, finished version in order to be successful.
What do you think is the primary cause of people kind of jumping into that?
1:52
Is it just like undue optimism?
1:56
Speaker 2
I think it’s kind of in our DNA.
I think that most entrepreneurs are kind of born, not bred and I think it’s in our DNA till yes, to want to make a difference.
And so we jump in sort of boots and all, and with an unrealistic expectation of, you know, getting more freedom, having more time and being out with their whole, you know, working from a beach in Bali on a laptop thing, as has been put out there a lot.
2:15
And people gonna get sucked in by that.
But the reality is often a little bit harsher.
2:21
Speaker 1
I can wholeheartedly agree because when I started up the studio, I was like, it’s gonna be simple.
We’re gonna get going, I’m going to get everything rolling, and then basically from there, hope that it works.
And there was kind of like a lot of things I hadn’t put into place to make it work.
2:37
And then ultimately about, I want to say about just over a year ago, we had to make a really hard decision whether to let it crash and burn or prop it up.
And so I ended up propping up personally by injecting a whole bunch of cash into it to make sure that it worked.
2:53
And as an entrepreneur who’s gone through that, it’s not a great feeling.
And I find often those moments elicit more lessons than you know when you’re doing well.
3:06
Speaker 2
I completely agree.
I mean, resilience comes from all of the the mistakes that you’ve made and how you kind of bounce back from them and haven’t been through a few of them.
I think it’s certainly helped.
But I do, I do think that it’s, it’s really interesting.
We’ve got to kind of think about when do we stop pouring stuff in and when do we actually go enough is enough.
3:24
And it’s really hard for us because we are driven, we’re motivated, we want to make a difference.
And so often we kind of go a little bit too long.
And you’ve seen it with all kinds of entrepreneurs.
You’re famous entrepreneurs around the globe as well.
We’ve gone through some of the things.
3:38
Lessons from a Business Train Wreck: The First Collapse
Have a When you were getting into your moment just before that first collapse on the first round, what was it like?
Were you stressed to the nines?
Were you like walk me through some of the emotions involved with?
3:50
Speaker 2
That to be honest, the first one was a very, very different.
And So what had happened was I had actually bought into a company, I had my own business that was going along quite nicely and I and I bought into another company.
We merged the two businesses together.
And in all honesty, I actually thought everything was going really well.
And it was it was a phone call from the tax department.
4:08
Never forget the the accountant at the time.
So I said, I’ve got the tax department on the phone for you.
I was like, OK, pop them through, let’s have a chat.
I don’t what they want.
And this person on the other end of the line sort of said, I’m just following up your overdue PAYE.
And I was like, oh, OK, we’ve been paying PAYEI don’t know what it’s called over where you are, but that’s the stuff that you pay for your employees, the tax on your employees.
4:29
And she said, yeah, you have been paying it for the last six months, which is when I joined the business.
But the six months before that, you haven’t been paying it.
I was like, oh, OK, interesting.
Tell me about that.
She gave me the numbers.
It was $22,000 every month and it was six months worth.
It was like 130 odd, $1000.
4:44
I’m thinking, OK, not great, but this is OK, we can work through this.
And I was like, OK, that’s cool, let’s let’s look, talk about a payment plan.
We’ll get that sorted.
And then she said, well, I’ve got you on the phone.
I’d like to talk about the overdue GST as well.
And I was like, oh, you’re kidding me.
What?
And the similar thing, we hadn’t paid GST for a six months as well.
5:01
And that was a sort of similar amount.
And so at the end of it, the bottom line figure was 220,000.
And quite honestly, again, the optimist in me kind of, well, that’s OK.
It’s just a number.
We can pay this off.
And so we kind of work through how we could pay that off with the tax department.
And then, yeah, so that was a bit of a shock, but I was really confident we could actually work through it.
5:20
And then we had one very, very large client over in the US who was pretty much almost, I would say, 85% of our income.
And right in the middle of all of this, they decided to let us know they were pulling the plug and going to bring all of their stuff in house.
5:37
And that was like they talked about the House of Cards, that was the card that just everything collapsed from there on end.
So that the first one was a little bit different because there was no forewarning.
There was a little bit of stress once we found out about the tax bill and we were working hard to get it paid off, but it was very, very quick.
5:54
Speaker 1
With the House of Cards falling down around you, what are some of the thoughts that go through your minds because you spent so much time building this only for all to come clap like just clattering down around you?
Like where?
Where were you during all that?
6:09
Speaker 2
Minister, it was, it was really tough because, yeah, as you know, you’ve poured your heart and soul into it.
But more than that, we actually employed staff, right?
And so we had 14 staff that we had to let go.
And to me, that was, that was just soul destroying because I knew I was ruining people’s lives, but it wasn’t something that I had planned for anything that I wanted to do.
6:29
It was just one of those consequences.
And we fought really, you know, my business partner, I fought really, really hard to try and turn it around.
But as you can imagine, stress the the pressure we were under.
I actually think that because we didn’t have a Plan B that we’d thought about when we were in a really sane and calm mind, we were trying to scramble for a Plan B in a very stressed, overwhelmed mind.
6:55
And I think that’s probably one of the lessons I’ve learned is plan for the worst while you’re in a good space, not when you’re in a bad space.
When you’re bad space, you make silly decisions.
You do things that perhaps you shouldn’t do because of the pressure that comes with it.
And so yeah, honestly, soul destroying, difficult, heartbreaking, feeling like a failure.
7:15
You know, how could I have not known this?
What’s wrong with me?
All of the usuals or self blame stuff, but at the same time trying to hold it all together to do the best that we possibly could for what was left of the business.
7:27
Speaker 1
And so at that point did you is that when you were in, you know, figured out you just have to close the company like how did that?
7:32
Rebuilding Confidence and the Power of Supportive Partners
Go I got in contact with a good mentor of mine and I was one of the things I, you know, I’ve always said to people, get yourself a good mentor or and a coach because they can help you and I got in contact with them.
This is what’s going on.
I don’t know what we do about this.
You said, Deborah, you’re you’re effectively trading insolently.
This is illegal.
7:49
It doesn’t feel like you can pull yourself out of it.
I would get a receiver in and do the right thing.
At this point, doing the right thing is actually to get the receivers in and and and salvage what you can and get something back to them, to the staff and to the creditors.
8:03
Speaker 1
That’s brutal.
And so then after that, like there was there some time where you just had some reflection time, like talk to me about that period after that, because that to me is where you start to reveal who you really are right after a moment like that, the growth phase after that point is not that common because most people just like that’s it.
8:24
I’m going to go get a job.
I’m going to go back.
Like what drove you to go?
You know what, let me pick up and and start over here and make something bigger and better.
8:33
Speaker 2
Yeah, So to be honest, I did not go straight back into another another business.
I did actually lick my wounds for a while.
And I figured that because I had come from a general manager CEO background, I had huge earning capacity as an employee.
So I thought, OK, the best thing I can do right now is probably go and take a corporate job, much as I hated corporate world, but I thought, well, this will give me the chance to kind of rebuild, pay off a lot of the debt.
8:56
I was very determined to make sure we paid off all the debt that we had.
And so I started looking for a job.
But I mean that that in itself was not a not a pleasant experience, but I finally found one.
It was a contract role.
It was, it was a good role.
It pay good money.
And H ended up staying there for about, I think it was almost three years, just while I rebuilt myself, rebuilt my confidence, because I think I lost a huge amount of confidence in that.
9:19
And then one day I just woke up and I went, what am I doing?
I, I can’t stand this anymore.
I can’t stand corporate life.
I can’t stand all the red tape.
I, it’s just not me.
And so I went into work and I quit and I went, that’s it.
I’m out.
And the boss said, what are you going to do?
It’s like, I don’t know, but I just can’t do this anymore.
9:35
And then I went back into business.
9:38
Speaker 1
Well, it sounds like to me that you have, like, that spirit.
I often say that entrepreneurs and like in general only have one drive in their mind, which is they can see how it could be better, right?
They have a hard time accepting the existing.
9:54
And they just like, I would rather be out there making it move forward and be better and to change it.
It’s.
Yeah.
I mean, I have done a very similar thing where I’ve worked in a position where I thought that, you know, this is good.
I’ve got, you know, young kid home.
This will bring in some good money.
10:10
And then my wife like, listen, I would rather you be happy and poor than miserable and making money.
So like, let’s figure this out.
And so then I walked away from that job going, well, I can work 40 hours for somebody, so why can’t I do that for myself?
Why can’t I start showing up for myself and doing that?
10:26
And then that was the start of my Nair agency, so.
10:30
Speaker 2
That’s yeah.
Sounds like you have a very lovely wife who would support you in that.
Unfortunately, I had a partner at the time who was quite the opposite and said, you know, you need to go out, that you need to earn money, you need to contribute.
And so even though I would tell him that I was desperately unhappy in my job, it was like, well, you know, tough shit, suck it up, buttercup, you need to do it.
10:47
And so, yeah, I know he’s no longer around.
10:51
Speaker 1
Yeah, I was gonna say, is that still a thing?
Yeah, that’s that’s a tough one too, because I think like in order to do what you want to do, I like to chase dreams.
You have to have a partner who sees the value in the dream to start with, right?
11:06
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And I think it can make a break here.
I mean, I’ve seen what’s the date of the CEO guys.
I’ve seen him talk about that and have guests come on the podcast and kind of talk about the fact that if you have a, a strong partner who is supportive of you, supportive of your dream, it it’s a, it’s a make or break situation.
11:26
Speaker 1
Yeah, I find it, especially when I was going into building the studio, I needed someone to run side by side with, right.
So like, it was like, not like my wife was supportive, which is great.
And that was, you know, a part of it.
But I needed a business partner to run side by side.
And you mentioned having a mentor and a coach.
11:43
And so often I confuse the two and put them both side by side.
Like, how important is it to have like, which would you put a priority on if you were getting started in your entrepreneurial journey now?
Would you prioritize coach or a mentor?
11:57
Leveraging Coaches, Operating Systems, and Effective Delegation
I actually wouldn’t, I’d say you need both.
And I always talk about the fact that you need three things to really be successful in business.
I think you need a coach, which is somebody who is, you know, truly coaching.
So they’re asking the tough questions, they’re getting you to think of the answers.
They’re getting you to really embrace everything and, and, and do it yourself.
12:16
The mentor is somebody who’s kind of been there, done that, got the T-shirt and so really great to get real life examples and to help you understand some of the things that they’ve been through.
And then the other one is I think operating system, and I know that sounds a bit corny, but I think having a framework that you can run the business within just gives real clarity.
12:33
It means that you can actually bring your, your team on the journey.
You can, you can be very clear.
And it means that it stops that whole what happens if things go wrong?
We’ve, we’ve got a plan, we know how to hold it all together.
So I think those three things are equally important.
And you know, a coach is generally a paid engagement and a mentor is normally a, a complementary engagement, somebody who’s willing to help you.
12:55
So I do think you need both of them.
12:58
Speaker 1
Interesting, I know that a lot of entrepreneurs tend to think it’s a lonely journey and should only like it’s only a successful entrepreneur story if they do it and go along.
13:09
Speaker 2
Hard like, I mean, I don’t know about you, but most entrepreneurs that I know, myself included, are control freaks, right?
And we’re not very good at letting go, which means that yes.
And and of course, that whole that what I’ve learned over my 55 years is that failure story that was deep within me about being a failure.
13:27
You know, if you couldn’t do it on your own, then clearly you are a failure.
Where over time, I’ve now learned that sharing the load, sharing the burden, having somebody who walks alongside you, somebody who actually helps you through the tough times, it’s just invaluable.
You don’t have to do it alone.
13:43
And in fact, the more you let go, counterintuitive, but the more you let go, the better things become and the easier it becomes, and the faster the business actually scales.
13:53
Speaker 1
It’s so scary as an entrepreneur because especially as we’re learning how to like delegate and to share roles and to grow as a company, not just as a bunch of freelancers put together, it becomes like you said, it’s a control freak, like knee jerk reaction to not want it to happen.
14:11
You know, like we just want to make sure it’s all being looked after by ourselves.
And, and my business partner Brady and I have had this conversation many times where we sit there and say, like, you know, how do we effectively delegate without losing our minds and losing our vision?
14:29
Like what’s the best approach have you found?
Cause you’ve worked with a lot of different businesses at this point.
14:35
Speaker 2
Right.
I’ve worked over 600 businesses and their lady business and their leadership teams.
And I think that I in any OS language, we use a tool called kind of delegate and elevate.
And it’s really about getting clear about the stuff that you love and are greater and the things that you like and are good at because they’re where you’re really add the most value.
14:53
Now, as entrepreneurs, we can often do lots of things.
I mean, I was one of those kids who could do absolutely anything at school.
The only thing I can’t do is play poker because apparently my face is not good at for a poker game.
But everything else I can do.
And so because I can, I thought that I should and I used to spend a lot of time doing things that I could do and was good at, but I actually really hate it.
15:13
And if you think about the stuff you don’t like or you’re not good at really is a, is a terrible waste of your energy and there’s opportunity cost there.
And I, I’ll give a little example if you don’t mind.
I, yeah, I, I’m a really, really good cleaner.
So I’m half German, half British and my mother, you know, she taught me how, I mean, I clean better than I think anybody else in the world, but I don’t like it if I hate it.
15:34
And when I’m doing it, I’m usually whinging kind of going.
I can’t believe I’ve got a MBA and who I am cleaning stuff.
And so many, many years ago, I said that I’m gonna get it.
You know, this makes no sense for me to do cleaning.
I’m gonna get a cleaner in to clean the house, clean the office, everything else.
And this cleaner came in, I showed her what I wanted and she went around and started doing the cleaning.
15:51
And every time she finished cleaning, I’d come home from work or go into the office and go, oh, she’s missed this bit here.
And so at the time when I, I whinged to my husband at the time and said, look, you know, I just can’t believe it.
I’m paying this cleaner and she’s just not doing it the way that I want.
He said, well, what she not doing, Deborah?
16:06
I said, well, she doesn’t finish off the cabinets quite like this in the bathroom.
Taps aren’t quite done.
He said, So how long does it take you to finish it?
The standard that you want, I said, was about 3 or 4 minutes, he said.
So isn’t that a good thing?
That means that you have just saved 3 hours of your time to spend 3 or 4 minutes to finish it off to your standard.
16:26
What’s wrong with that?
And it was like, you know, I hadn’t really thought of it that way in terms of actually 90 percent, 80% is actually good enough.
And if you really feel like you have to then go into the extra bit afterwards, so be it.
These days I don’t even bother with that, but I used to, I used to go out and finish everything off and it was, you know, 100%.
16:44
But that is the, the power if you’re doing, you know, if you’re not, if you’re not, the opportunity cost was.
I then had three hours more in my week to do stuff that I loved to do more valuable work to to work on the business or those sort of things.
So yeah, just think about where your energy is being sucked.
17:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, the structure is a really good way of looking at it because especially when you start like realizing the roles involved in your company, right, as you can actually start delegating and be like, OK, based on this, you need to do this.
And we found that as we’re growing, being very specific about those roles and being like, this is what this is about, this is what the job entails.
17:22
This is the kind of the people you’re going to be working with or the people you’re not working with, which often, you know, a kind of something I didn’t expect to have to explain to people.
You know, it’s like, you know, don’t worry about that.
Just focus in on this, right?
Because especially I think in business, you can have a lot of kind of like legit like logical people coming in, but as a creative, we have a lot of creatives in there and creatives are different bunch.
17:46
We just like the chaos monkeys of the group, right?
Do you find that entrepreneurs that have is there like a entrepreneur that you can watch go, you know what, you have these traits that’s gonna be successful or would you find it just takes all types to make this?
18:04
Speaker 2
Messenger takes all types because as you just said, different businesses are different and it really it you, there’s a saying that you know, you should follow your passion and the money will follow.
I don’t necessarily agree with that.
I don’t know that your passion should be your job, but you should be passionate about your role.
18:21
And so I think that, you know, obviously creatives get very passionate about the creative side, people who are more logical minded and scientific and data brokers will get passionate about that side of things.
So it does take all types and there’s different types of entrepreneurs.
When I work with advertising agencies, I work with people who manufacture water tanks, I work with people who grow vegetables, I work with people who have software businesses.
18:43
There’s they’re all very, very different sort of entrepreneurs and different businesses, but it takes all types.
18:50
Untangling Complexity in Family Businesses and Common Challenges
From what I can tell, you work a lot with different kind of like family businesses as well, is that correct?
Yeah, Yeah, I do.
How does that go?
Because I mean, like families are tight knit, right?
So and you’re kind of like this third party coming on in with ideas and insights and how does that go down?
19:07
Speaker 2
Well, they’re not always tight knit, let’s be honest, there’s often a lot of fractures beneath the surface, which is probably what part of the reason why I love it.
I’ve always, always recognised that I love complexity and simplifying things.
But I mean, you know, yes, the family is tight.
Yes, it’s gonna take some time to build some trust.
19:23
I mean, every relationship that is successful is built on trust.
And so you have to have some time to build that trust with the family.
But at the same time, I’m able to, you know, stand on the outside like a coach looking and seeing some of the things that they probably can’t see.
And particularly with family dynamics, you know, it might look wonderful on the surface, but there’s usually a lot of stuff going on underneath and a lot of things that are seeping into the business that really shouldn’t be.
19:46
And so my role is to kind of go, OK, we’ve got family, we’ve got the business, we’ve got the ownership of the entity.
Let’s keep those things very separate.
Let’s let’s take the emotion out of it.
Let’s do some tools that can help you take the emotion out of it and really do what’s best for the business.
19:59
Speaker 1
Is that when you’re saying systems?
Sort of like the operating system, Is that what you’re kind of implying at that point?
20:04
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean in the family business model particularly there’s there’s a Harvard 3 circle family.
But we talk about the family, we talk about the business, about ownership.
And they’re three very distinct circles.
So now if you’re a family, that means you’re just a brother or sister and auntie and uncle or whatever it might be in the business, you may or may not have a role.
20:20
But if you have a role, it should be a very, very clearly defined role.
And the ownership side is that, you know, who owns all the different assets and you may or may not be an owner.
And within each of those circles, you actually need a framework.
So when I say operating system, all I really mean is it’s a bunch of rules.
20:36
It’s like the reason we love sport and we love playing games is because we know how to win.
We know how we score a penalty, we know how we lose, we know what winning feels like.
And all of those things are just the rules of the game.
And so within each of those three circles, you have rules of the game.
20:51
Who’s the leader?
How often do we meet?
What are, what’s our long-term plan?
What do I call values?
How do we live and breathe and, and, and what not in that circle?
So just setting some rules around it.
So then when you’re making decisions, you’re making it based within that framework and those rules rather than emotionally.
21:07
So just because you’re the first born son does not mean you should be the leader of this business.
You should be the leader of this business if you meet the following criteria.
And this is what makes your heart sing.
If not, maybe that’s not the role for you.
And so just trying to put some frameworks around it to make it easier so that we’re not talking about brother, sister, mother, daughter, you know, we’re talking about what does the business actually need.
21:29
Speaker 1
And it’s kind of like its own thing, right?
So its own living, breathing thing.
It needs specific things to stay afloat.
21:36
Speaker 2
Yeah, and it needs regular maintenance, right?
You can’t grow something without watering it and I don’t know what, feeding it nutrients and talking to it and all that kind of stuff.
So that’s like the same within the the family business, right?
You need to actually nurture each of those three circles and each of those relationships to ensure you’re getting the most from it.
21:53
And by putting some, you know, by defining them and keeping them quite separate, it just makes it easier and know what each of those things actually needs.
22:02
Speaker 1
Now, like myself, you’ve worked with a lot of different businesses, right?
So you kind of get a a similar trend that occurs throughout those businesses when they start onboarding you.
Is there very specific things or is there kind of similar things that occur when you start getting involved with them?
22:21
And what are some of the things that they could do to either mitigate them completely or actually improve upon before they get to talking to you?
22:31
Speaker 2
Yeah, you’re right.
They’re absolutely similar matter what business it is and whether it’s a family business or non family business, no matter what industry they’re in, they all have kind of similar traits.
So one of the first things is that you know, the founder, the owners, they will tell you that they’re really, really clear about where they’re headed, what they’re doing.
22:47
But you asked the rest of the team and quite frankly, they’ve got no fucking clue because it’s sort of in the head of the founder, not actually, not actually articulated or it’s articulated in such a way.
I’ll give an example.
I work with a, a leadership team where there are 11 owners of the business.
And when I went in there, you know, I said, you know, do you have a plan?
23:05
Do you have your core values?
Do you know who you are?
Do you know where your head like, yeah, we’ve got all of that’s great, That’s cool.
I don’t know.
I’m not gonna throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Let’s have a look at it.
I said, let’s start with your core values.
You know what?
How many core values do you have?
We got nine of them.
That’s awesome.
Great.
I’ve got 11 shareholders in this room.
Can we go around the table and tell me what those 9 core values are?
23:22
Guess how many they managed to get to?
23:25
Speaker 1
Probably 3.
23:26
Speaker 2
Three.
Yeah, yeah.
And so you go.
We always.
23:29
Speaker 1
We always distill it down to three.
23:30
Speaker 2
Yeah, 33 is the magic number.
And I always say, you know, 3 to 5 is kind of the most most people can cope with.
So, you know, and even 5 is difficult.
So yeah, so it was like, OK, so you have a whole bunch of core values, but you don’t really, they’re just, they’re just words on a paper.
So tell me about the vision.
And as we went through all the different sort of components, it was obvious that, yes, they had it.
23:47
They had this beautiful big a three piece of paper, but nobody knew what was on it.
And so it’s like we need to get clarity, clarity around who we are, where we’re headed, how we operate, you know, who we serve, what’s important to them, what’s our plan to get there.
And all those things are, are generally kind of somewhere in a founder’s head or on a very large piece of paper that’s never seen the light of day.
24:10
And so it’s like I would say clarity creates confidence.
And so how do we get all that stuff out into a working document that people understand?
Then, of course, the second thing is founders don’t wanna let go.
And so no, you know, you know, so you got somebody at the head of the table would be one person left in people who were all like, but we all wanna be involved and we all want, and they’re all meddling.
24:30
And I, I call, I call visionaries or founders seagulls.
And I’m one myself, right?
But, you know, seagulls are the people that come in, shit all over the place and then bugger off and leave the rest of the people to clean up.
And so, you know, so that’s the other sort of common trait is that you’ve got this person who, with all due respect, is kind of meddling in the business and, and they just need to get out of it and get on with the stuff that they’re really good at and allow the team to run it.
24:53
And so what’s the clarity around the structure?
Who’s accountable for what?
How are we gonna hold them accountable?
What are we gonna do as a team to work together so that we haven’t got a whole bunch of people trying to do the same thing?
And I don’t know, I’m a bit of an F1 fan.
And so I, I use the analogy of a pit stop.
25:11
It’s like, you know, imagine if you went into a pit stop and everybody on that pit stop team decided to change the front left tyre.
It would be a bit of a mess, right?
So getting clear around the roles and what each person does is really what he can.
And often that’s the bit that’s been missing there because they’ve just grown organically.
25:28
And I see it even in large companies.
I’ve got companies, I’ve got several hundred staff, but they’ve grown organically and they’ve never clearly defined what those roles are.
So they would be the two kind of biggest.
There’s a third one, but they are the two biggest ones.
The third one is about not having the difficult conversations.
25:43
You know I’ve got the LED elephant here.
25:45
Speaker 1
Elephants in the room?
I was gonna ask why there’s an elephant in the room.
25:48
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
So that’s the the the 3rd and final thing is that, you know, there’s often a huge elephant in the room where several elephants in the room or sacred cows that were not talking about.
And it’s because difficult conversations by nature are difficult and people don’t want to have them.
26:05
And so it’s like, how do we actually help the team become more healthy and, and be able to have those difficult conversations?
26:11
Mastering Accountability and the Visionary-Integrator Relationship
When you talk about difficult conversations with teams often starts at the top right and then distills this way down.
How do you ensure that the questions you’re asking at the top level are actually going to affect the people who they serve?
26:24
Speaker 2
Yeah.
So I always work with the owner and the leadership team.
So I’m working across that kind of broader team, not just the owner.
I think it’s, it’s dangerous to work only with the owner.
Otherwise it just stops there.
But we also teach them the skills.
So I always say I I play a role of three things.
I teach people I’m a coach and a facilitator.
26:42
And so we, we don’t just I’m, I’m not, I’m not a consultant.
I’m the dumb blonde at the front of the room with a marker pen who just kind of helps them to, and the curious child who asks the difficult questions.
But I try and help them learn tools that they can then take what we’re doing in there.
And we use like we use real life examples in the session room, which people we can’t talk about this here.
27:01
There should be an offline conversation.
Now let’s have the conversation here because then we can learn the skills that are required to have that difficult conversation, which you can then filter down to the rest of your team and teach them how to have it too.
And so I don’t know if that answered the question or not, but it’s really about.
27:16
Speaker 1
No, it does because I mean, I know that when I look at how even how we coordinate in our own company, like often stuff gets lost between myself and my team, right.
And it’s like a matter of sitting down, like you said, having those difficult conversations, having, you know, I find the difficult conversations more often than not are hidden to start with because no one wants to talk about them.
27:40
So they just kind of sit there in the corner quietly, you know, and as long as no one touches them, they’ll be fine.
They’ll just stay there, you know, and like that, that’s how you end up scaling to like, you know, 2-3 hundred people without addressing that main thing.
The part from me that is the intriguing part as someone who’s kind of early on in the journey and I’ve gone from a freelancer to I now run an agency with a couple of employees.
28:07
Like, what are some of the stumbling blocks that you see early on that people like myself get into where it’s like, you know, we’re growing, we’re doing well, we’re bringing in, you know, talented team.
Like where are some of the stumbling blocks that early founders to kind of like businesses can kind of try to avoid if possible?
28:28
Speaker 2
Yeah.
So I mean, if we think about those sort of difficult conversations, I think the reason a lot of these things don’t happen, probably one of the most important things that needs to happen, they don’t happen because the founder tends to be a bit of a kind of a superhero who comes in and solves things all the time.
And so and we’re fast, we’re quick paced and we wanna just get stuff done.
28:44
And so we don’t allow our people to take full accountability and to make the mistakes and to bring stuff to us.
And so as a consequence, we’re kind of shutting down the ability for them to come to us with difficult things because they kind of go, if I go and take it to Ash, he’s just going to either solve it or he’s going to tell me that, you know, I’m being stupid.
29:02
And I don’t think you’d use those words, but you know that that is that how they’re feeling about it?
That’s how they feel.
And so as founders, we’ve got to really let our team take full accountability and, and build that trust that they can come to you when they’ve kind of fucked up and, and, and they’re not, they know they’re not going to get in trouble for it.
29:19
They can feel comfortable going.
I don’t think this is working.
As I said, visionaries.
They’re, they’re, they’re, they’re control freaks, but they’re also very strong personalities.
And so for a lot of people, they are very afraid of them.
It’s like, well, I don’t want to upset Ash or Deborah or Adam or you know, and I don’t want to, I don’t want to bother them cause they’re busy.
29:39
Cause, you know, we’re always super busy.
And it’s like that.
And I hate that word.
But that’s what people see in us.
They go, but she’s so busy, I don’t wanna disturb her.
We’ve gotta foster an environment where they actually feel like they have some ownership and some accountability and it’s OK for them to question what is going on without feeling that they’ve been minimized.
29:59
Speaker 1
Interesting, I like the the you talk about the emotions behind it as well.
And I think as a founder, we often get lost in the the joy of making it work and seeing it come to life and seeing it working right.
30:14
And often we can be a bit brash when it comes to other people’s emotions with making that happen, right.
Like, do you find some good leaders have got some good tricks into how to worker teams and not feel that feel like they’re being, you know, pushed to the side or kind of being ignored?
30:32
Speaker 2
Gosh, I think it just comes down to self-awareness.
I mean, I think, you know, part of the journey you’re building a business is as much about becoming self-aware yourselves that you can see.
I mean, I know, I know that I get triggered by certain things.
I would hope that these days I recognise those triggers and I kind of, you know, can reign it in a bit.
30:49
I know that when I I write emails to people, this is the German in me.
It’s like straight to the point, Ash, need this.
Where is it?
And then you kind of go, oh shit, I probably should ask, Hi Ash, how are you doing?
Hope you’re having a good day.
You know, I really appreciate all the work that you’ve done, but I’m just wondering where this bit is at.
31:05
And so, you know, trying to catch yourself and being self aware is really, really important.
But also in those conversations as well, like, do you the hero can also sometimes be the firefighter?
You know, sometimes I think that we like a bit of chaos because we can jump in and we can rescue and fight the fires.
31:20
But I always say if you’re constantly fighting fires, then you’re basically creating arsonists in the business because they get a buzz out of fighting the fires.
And we don’t want that.
So it’s like, how do we actually calm ourselves down a bit?
And the best way to do it is to actually put yourself 2 ICC in charge who is completely the opposite to you.
31:40
I think that’s one of the best things any business owner can do is to actually have a balancing person in there to remove you from the the the direct contact with the people all the time.
31:51
Speaker 1
I had this early on too, where people would just be absolutely exhausted by the pure energy that if you’re left unbridled can occur, right?
You can be like, do this, we’re going to do this, can do this.
Go stat next, right, and like I know my team and I’m getting better.
32:07
I mean, it’s in order to become a leader like and it’s it’s a really tricky thing because you have to spend some time not looking at what you’re able to put out into the world, but actually going internally and and kind of self assessing and understanding.
You know, OK, maybe I am bringing a bit too much energy into the into the fray here.
32:27
I need to kind of dial it back so that they can work on the things and get the things done.
Especially with the, you know, I find like the founders mindset of it has to happen now, you know, like, do you find the leaders are is is a, is a true leader?
32:42
Do they actually have to be taught or is this something that is just a natural state for them?
32:48
Speaker 2
I’m not sure how to answer that.
I think that I think that as most founders are visionaries.
And so in EOS we talk about vision, we talk about an integrator visionary is the person has the big ideas, the one look bright, shiny object.
They’re the ones that actually will change the world because they see things that other people can’t see.
33:04
But it also means that they have too many crazy ideas and not all of their ideas are great.
And so that is a a superpower in itself.
And we don’t want to discourage that at all.
But if we can actually allow the visionary to step into that role and really be that role and nothing else, bringing in a two way C or an integrator or somebody who is like, you’ve got the visionary here, you got the integrator sort of, you know, as as the conduit between them and the rest of the team.
33:27
The integrator is generally the person who’s a lot more measured, who’s not afraid to have difficult conversations, who really wants to make sure the business kind of achieves what doesn’t it.
She, she or he filters out the ideas from the visionary and make sure that only the good ones get through and that they’re not coming in and, and distracting everybody with everything else.
33:46
And so again, I’ve got an example of a client where there was 120 person organisation based all around New Zealand.
They had this vision.
She was amazing lady, like super amazing, changing the industry.
Everybody revered her.
She was in the media, she was an absolute media darling.
34:01
But I observed her with her team of 11 leaders.
And what I realised was she’d come in on a Monday morning after the weekend and she’d throw all of these ideas at the team.
And the team of 11 leaders would go out there and try desperately to kind of, you know, bring these ideas to life.
And then they’d come back in, you know, 6-7 weeks later and go look at what I’ve done.
34:19
Look, look, I’ve done this thing, isn’t it?
This is what you asked once you go, what do you mean?
What’s that?
Well, that’s what you asked for.
Oh, no, I’ve, I’ve moved on from that.
That was just an idea.
And so, so you had this team of like 11 people who are working crazy, crazy hours, all overwhelmed, all feeling a little bit like frantic because that’s not their natural energy.
34:38
That was her energy that she was bringing into it.
So we brought in this, this two, I see this integrator.
And he just became the, the, the, the filter.
So he would, you know, he would spend time with the visionary on a regular basis chatting through all the ideas, not not stymieing them, not, not not pushing them down, but going.
34:54
Yeah, I think that’s a really good.
Let’s explore that a bit further.
Let’s have a look at this and just make sure that by the time the idea got to the team, it was genuinely a good idea that would make the boat go faster.
We reduced the leadership team down to sort of five people because 11:00 is way too many.
That’s like decision by committee doesn’t make any sense.
35:10
And we just got this, this.
We had, we put a plan in place and we had this integrator who was there to, to make sure the visionary was a bit like, you know, working in their zone of genius, doing the stuff that they were really, really good at, but not having to get involved in the day-to-day business.
And that just changes everything, which is why I’m so passionate about people.
35:29
As soon as you can afford it, even if it’s only a fractional integrator, get somebody in because they’ll become your sounding board.
They’ll become the person who supports you.
And all the tough stuff that we hate to do, the difficult conversations, the making things happen, making sure things get finished.
They’re the finisher, the person who holds everything together.
35:45
It’ll just change your business.
I guarantee your scale 10 times as fast.
35:51
Speaker 1
Interesting.
So how do integrators in particular maintain their own sanity and their own measure?
Because I mean, as someone who might often bring a lot of energy to the table and then have it being filtered by another party, how does that person get to the point where they can manage that?
36:12
Because it can be overwhelming, right?
And, and rightly so, there’s a lot of energy and ideas and it’s not always apparent which one is the good idea, which one is there like a system that they can apply to not go crazy.
36:26
Speaker 2
It is a really tough job.
I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna kid you.
I mean, I think we actually have a peer group for integrators because they need to get together and sort of sometimes just share the stuff that they’re going because it’s actually the founders job is a lonely job, but so is the integrators because they’re actually holding the whole thing together.
They’re keeping that visionary at Bay.
36:41
They’re keeping the team motivated and inspired and and just having the tough conversations is a difficult job.
But I suppose it comes down to, again, clarity creates confidence.
If we’re really, really clear on the end game of the business and where we’re headed, then their role is just to always put that lens across it.
36:57
You know, why do we exist?
What do we do?
What are we here for?
Does this make the boat go faster?
How do I do that?
And a good visionary integrated relationship is 1 where you are, I liken it to a marriage like you’ve got opposites attract, you know, they’ve got, they’ve got complementary skills as opposed to opposing skills, which means that they can have the really tough conversations, they can have the fights, but they’re doing it with the greater good in mind.
37:22
And it’s a great relationship.
I mean, like, I know that the relationship with my integrator, it’s good because she, she challenges me.
She changes the way that I think about certain things.
Sometimes I want to kill her.
But most of the time I, you know, I really appreciate the fact that she’s bringing a different perspective.
And I tell you what, the business would not be where it is today if it wasn’t for her because I’d be off doing my next bright shiny object.
37:44
And the next thing that I wanted to do was she’s keeping it laser sharp focus.
So yeah, it’s a, it’s a lonely job.
That’s why we have peer groups for them, so they can have their little bitchy sessions and kind of get some of the stuff how to know that they’re not alone.
But but it’s also really rewarding job because you think about you’re taking the brilliant ideas of this brilliant mind of your visionary and actually executing it.
38:05
Like what could be better than?
38:05
Speaker 1
That what makes a good visionary.
38:10
Speaker 2
A good visionary is somebody who I think, I think, let’s say knows himself so knows their their strengths, their weaknesses and limitations, really has done a lot of self development and understands what they need to who they need to be in order to run the business.
Somebody who recognizes that they don’t have to run it all and that actually the sooner they get a good team around them, the right people in the right seats, the sooner they can actually let go.
38:33
Somebody who is passionate about the role of a visionary, like not everybody is, it is meant to be a visionary.
So do they, you know, is it something that they really truly get and they want to have the capacity to do and it makes their heart sing And somebody you don’t have to be, you have to love people.
38:50
You have to building a culture, but you don’t have to be the person who wants to have all the difficult conversations.
So don’t try to be like, just recognise what you’re really good at and where you add value and let let the rest of it go.
39:04
Articulating Your Business’s Core Story and Values
I find a lot of solace in that because there’s someone who’s learning to embrace the kind of the visionary part portion of myself and kind of forge away and forge a path in that direction.
It often feels like I keep running up against roadblocks and all the roadblocks are usually on the actually getting the the thing rolling right.
39:28
So it’s the actual work.
And so often what I’ll do is I’ll kind of stop what I’m doing and then get it working because like you talked about the firefighter, I’ve never heard that term before.
And I think I’m gonna use that from now on.
It’s just, it’s just makes sense, you know, like having someone who just jumped from thing to thing.
39:44
And like you said, if you’re, you know, if you getting too heavily on that, you’re going to end up becoming, you know, building a company full of arsonists.
And I think that is a, it rings really true to me Like the the concept of running a business I always liken to a really complicated family, but at the same time.
40:04
Structured family, so almost militant in how it’s put together.
Like at what point do we need to turn around and say, you know, families, family and businesses business, obviously, but at what point is 2 family like of a business going to kind of like implode the business because that’s not going to work?
40:27
Speaker 2
Just run that by me again.
What was the question you’re.
40:29
Speaker 1
Asking so yeah, so is yeah.
So if you have a a company full of people who are kind of very, you know, kind of tight knit and they’re, you know, it’s kind of fluid in how they work together.
Is there a point where, you know, it’s too much like that?
Like, you know when people say, oh, being at work is like being.
40:47
Speaker 2
A family, you know, Yeah, again, I mean, I have a very strong view that families, relationships, business, where they’re all games, we’ve all got to play them.
In a way, that’s what it is, is beneficial.
And so I do think sometimes when we kind of liken it to a family, I would question whether or not there is actually enough accountability and if there’s enough clarity around what people are trying to do.
41:08
I think sometimes businesses and teams can become too jovial and therefore they’re not gonna call each other out because they’re they’re loving or their their happiness and their positivity.
But it’s like, actually, are they really fighting for the greater good?
Are they actually having the difficult conversations?
41:24
And I suppose it comes down to, yeah, we’ve got some really clear rules about who we are, then we headed what we’re trying to do, what your role is in that.
Then it just makes it a bit easier.
And I, don’t me wrong, I, I’ve strong culture.
Like it’s brilliant to have people in a strong culture where they’re all working together.
41:40
But it should always be for the greater good of the business and for that individual.
Are they doing the work that they love and are great at?
41:47
Speaker 1
I really, really love that because the greater good of the business implies that there’s a solid story behind the business to start with, right?
Yeah, that’s ahead of businesses.
How do businesses discover that if they don’t have that?
42:03
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, we always talk about, you know, what’s your core focus, which is you’re why So why do you get out of bed in the morning?
And where that usually comes from is talking to the founder about why they got involved in what they were doing or why they started the business.
And if it’s a family business, why the family kind of gets started in that.
42:20
So the wires really, really important.
Simonson, it talks about it, but it’s it’s it’s more of a personal wire as well.
It’s like, why do we actually get out of bed in the morning?
And that’s why we exist.
And then the what we do is, you know, what can we do better than anybody else, which is a Jim Collins hedgehog concept, You know, what can we do better than anybody else in our industry?
42:37
And if you can get that really clearly articulated in three to seven words, you know, less is more.
Make sure we’re not overcomplicating.
It’s not a massive big mission statement.
It’s like, why do we exist?
And I’m looking here at our other business, Sherwood Foundry.
42:52
You know our why our passion is empowering leaders to impact.
That’s why we get out of bed in the morning.
We wanna just empower people, feel power leaders to make an impact.
And then our niche is integrating change at every level.
And so the idea behind that is we’re there to kind of support with an ecosystem in a network, sort of support entrepreneurs that we can get change at every level throughout their business.
43:13
And because we have clearly articulated that and we know what that is, everybody gets that, they understand it.
They’re there because they also want to be part of that, which means you’ve got that common understanding, that common energy and that’s for the greater good.
Everything we talk about is it for the greater good, A10 year target is the VC of choice for impact growth businesses.
43:33
So is this making the boat go faster to become that VC of choice or is it actually, you know, helping integrate change at every level?
If it’s not, then we have to do something about it.
So I think that clarity around who we are, where we’re headed is just absolutely key.
43:48
And often it exists in the founders head, but it hasn’t been shared consistently with the team.
43:55
Speaker 1
Huh.
So how do they articulate that to their team?
43:59
Speaker 2
Well, I mean, for the first thing is I, I wouldn’t do it in isolation.
Like I didn’t come up with that, nor did Adam or David, my business partner, nor that you actually did it together as a team.
And so, but we did, we asked the questions, you know, why, why do we do this?
Why do we get out of bed in the morning?
And having the whole, I say it doesn’t normally come from the founder, but having the conversation with the team, you’ll start off with probably something really wordy.
44:19
You’ll start off with lots of different.
You ask everybody why, why they think we exist and get them all to write down their individual answers.
Then you put them together on a whiteboard and you start to work through it until you get to the right answer.
You kind of go, but why do we have to do that?
I already know why we exist.
So I already knew that in my heart, but it’s like, but I had to let the team come on that journey and understand how we got to that, because now they’ve all bought into it.
44:41
They all know where it came from.
The same with the niche, you know, by asking everybody individually, what do you think we do better than anybody else?
And they all write down their answers and we collect them all together.
Then we start working through till we get to the the magic sort of three to seven words.
It means that they’ve come on that journey.
44:56
They’ve now got a really deep understanding of of where it’s come from.
Same with that core values.
You know, you, you do the same kind of work.
It’s not a it’s not about having things on a wall that says is right.
Core values you talk about, well, what are they?
What makes us unique and special?
What do we really value?
What does that look like?
45:12
And I always say with core values, like, what will we do?
What won’t we do?
Because again, that gives us some boundaries, that gives us the rules of the game.
This is how we actually play.
And you may already have some core values and, and I’m not asking you to throw them out, but go through the exercise with the team and just make sure they understand.
45:28
Is it the right wording?
Does it make sense to them?
Is this they understand where it came from and by bringing them on that journey, they will have a much deeper understanding and then it becomes part of it.
Then you just gotta repeat it often.
Like honestly, there is some research that was done about 18 months ago.
We used to say you had to hear things seven times before you heard it for the first time.
45:47
The research about 18 months ago says 32 times.
So you imagine as a visionary, they used to say, but I’ve already told you that twice and my God, you’ve got five more times to go.
Now you say, great, you’ve got 30 more times to go and then they’ll get it.
46:02
Speaker 1
Dave, are we allowed to do just in consecutive like just back-to-back just to make sure that it’s getting in there?
No, you just, it’s gotta be an ongoing thing across multiple days.
46:10
Speaker 2
OK, absolutely.
And that’s why I mean I say I’m looking at my my vision traction organizer here on on my wall.
I mean I have them printed out with me.
We use them in our meetings.
We’re always referring back to it.
We present every quarter to the team about where we’ve come from, where we’re headed, what we’re doing.
We go back to, you know, who’s our core values, what’s our core focus, what’s our 10 year target, just keep repeating it all the time until it becomes absolutely, you know, in, built in, built in our DNA and that’s what we’re here for.
46:36
Speaker 1
What if it becomes second nature to them too?
It’s going to be an easy driver for them too.
But what happens if the business starts off in One Direction and then evolves into a new direction?
Like are we supposed to suddenly shift all the core values, shift all of that?
Like where does like?
46:52
Because as far as I can see, like pillars are pillars that you build on, right?
So they’re easy to shift.
47:00
Adapting Business Structure with Focused 90-Day Plans
I don’t think core values necessarily fundamentally change.
I do.
I do see businesses over the years that, you know, will change the wording a little bit and just they, they refine them because they start to understand more about what it means.
If you think about the core focus, it’s not like it’s absolutely specific.
47:15
I mean, when I gave you mine, it didn’t actually tell you exactly what we did.
So sometimes that won’t change, but sometimes it will.
Jim Collins talks about the fact that over time maybe that does change and that’s why we review these things every 90 days and go, is it still valid?
Does it still make sense and I wouldn’t recommend changing it every 90 days because you’ll lose the team and they’ll have no fucking clue what’s going on.
47:35
But but you should be reviewing it and going does it still make sense just the same as your structure?
Do we still have the right structure to deliver a fast growing scaling business?
The structure should not remain the same.
It’s not an org chart that gets set in stone as there forever.
It’s like what is the structure we need for the next bit of growth?
47:52
You know, working with an advertising agency over in Auckland that grew really, really quickly almost every 90 days.
Well, every night days were looking at it, but we’re also looking at going, is this still right for the next phase of growth?
And sometimes it isn’t.
And then they had to scale back because, you know, things weren’t going quite as well.
So it’s again, let’s have a look at what this looks like.
48:09
Let’s be really prepared every 90 days to review all this stuff and make sure it’s absolutely right.
48:14
Speaker 1
Well, and especially in advertising too, I know that my team has seen a lot of change over the past 16 months, even right.
And just advertising world right now is up and down all over the place.
And you know, people are leaning into socials are leaning into, you know, like everything’s changing.
48:33
I mean, like my producer just like scratches his head every time we wrenched because he just loves it so much.
But it’s like it’s, it’s kind of like the boogeyman of the of the creatives right now.
So like it’s a hard one to kind of like broach and to say like this can build good systems, but at the same time, we can’t lean on it overly.
48:52
So I think especially in advertising, it becomes a really difficult thing to kind of lock in, especially when it comes to the overarching kind of like positions in which people work within the company.
I like the idea of movement within the company, where as the output changes, so does the actual roles of those people.
49:15
And so it’s 2.
Yeah, I’d never really consider that because up to then it’s been like, OK, I’m hiring you for this role, right.
But then often that role might shift significantly, but it no longer matches what it was before.
You know that that to me is like, that’s a bit of a revolution because like for me it’s always been like, I guess it’s old school.
49:34
It’s like I hire you to do web design.
You’re gonna do just web design and then all something comes like, oh, I need someone to do paper, click here.
I need you to take care of that.
So you end up with this piece meal approach when you can actually evolve with the team to become a bit more of a integrated system I think, if that makes sense.
49:52
Speaker 2
I mean, my only sort of desperate plea is don’t keep changing things too regular because it can become unsettling, but it’s absolutely valid to go, hey, this is a very, very fast-paced world and we have to look at things all the time.
And when you do that, you look at the structure, try every time to take all the people out of it and just go, what does this business actually need and what are the functions that are in this business and what are the roles within this business?
50:15
And then if it’s changed significantly, have the conversation with the people.
You might find out the person who was doing web design actually really loves doing paid adverts and so we’ll be happy to do it.
But if not, that’s OK.
Hopefully there’s another role for them in the business, or maybe there isn’t, but it’s got to be about what the business aids rather than structure first kind of people. 2nd.
50:34
And I read something really I’ve, I’ve, I’m trained in both scaling up methodology and also the US methodology.
And I was reading scaling up and the Rockefeller habits again the other day.
And one thing I, I’d, I’d completely sort of lost a bit of sight of.
There are only two things that are important in the business.
The first one is the long term vision.
50:50
You’ve got to know where you’re going, otherwise any road will get you there.
And so being really, really clear about the long term vision and knowing where you’re headed means everything you do will move you towards that.
And the second thing, forget three-year plans and five year plans and what like the next thing that is really, really important is your 90 day plan because we as humans, we can only work in kind of 90 day cycles before we get distracted and bored and move on to other things.
51:13
And so, you know, the 90 day is a really important part, the long term vision where we headed, the 90 day plan, what do we need to do in the next 90 days?
Those two things, if you focus on nothing else, will give you the the growth that you need in your business.
51:27
Speaker 1
Ohio, I’d love that.
So the 90 day plan is actually something relatively new to me.
So walk me through the best practices when it comes to 90 day plan.
51:36
Speaker 2
Yeah, so best practice, you know, you’ve got your big hairy audacious 10 year target this where you’re headed in the long term.
You usually will have a three-year picture and a one year plan, but they’re really just about putting some a little bit of meat on the bone.
So you got a bit of a sense of where you’re going, but you can’t hang your hat on it cause things will change.
51:52
The 90 day plan kind of goes, OK, if we’ve got the 10 year big, big hairy audacious goal, we’ve got our one year plan, which is a goal trying to achieve in this year.
The 90 day is how do we break down those those one year kind of plans into bite sized chunks pieces of work.
So the first part is we’ve got to be very clear about what revenue we’re going to do, what profit going we’re going to make, how many people are going to have.
52:12
And I always say every single leadership team should be focused on revenue, profit and people.
If you focus on those three things, you will get to where you need to go.
So you have those, you know, written down so everybody understands it.
This is where we’re headed is what we’re trying to achieve.
And then you have your rocks, which is your three to seven most important things, not business as usual.
52:31
Business as usual is what I call, you know, it’s what you do.
Everybody sells shit, makes shit bills for shit.
Whether that shit is a service or product doesn’t matter.
That’s what we do as a business, right?
So that’s business as usual that sits on your scorecard and other places.
But really the rocks are what will fundamentally take this business forward, move the needle, do something that improves the business for the longer term good.
52:54
So it could be that you’re working on developing a new CRM to bed and manage your, your leads or lead funnel.
It might be that you’re looking to improve efficiency within a particular department.
It might be that you are looking to go enter into a new market.
53:10
So they’re kind of, you know, they’re bite sized chunks, pieces of work that fundamentally change the way the business is done.
And they’ve got to be realistic. 90 days goes in a heartbeat.
It’s 13 weeks and 13 weeks just passes like that.
So don’t set yourself a big, you know, goal of, oh, we’re going to completely change, you know, whatever it might be in 90 days, it’s not going to happen.
53:30
What’s the bite size chunk we can actually achieve?
And that helps us remain laser sharp focused.
You know, we’ve got the business as usual stuff, but what are we doing every single 90 days to keep moving ourselves forward?
53:43
Speaker 1
And is that something that you hold with just your leadership team, or is that the entire team that gets to be Privy to that?
53:49
Speaker 2
I, I do it, so we do it at the leadership team first.
So the leadership team is thinking about the company as a whole.
What does the company need to do?
And then once we’ve done it as a leadership team, we share it with the rest of the business.
And then the rest of the business has to think about what can they do to support that.
So they’ll have their own 90 day plan, which hopefully will hook into what they’re well, we should look into what the company is trying to achieve.
54:09
It might be directly related to a or it might be something in their own department.
You know, everybody should be focused on something that moves the needle in the business.
You know, for a, for a cleaner in a business, it might just be, hey, for the next 90 days, think about how we can use less chemicals in the business and, and come back with a plan to do that for somebody in the IT department.
54:30
It might be how do we improve our response time to, to, to issues in the business.
But everybody should be focused on something, but we share the bigger picture and the big plan first, so they can then think about how they how they contribute towards that.
54:43
Speaker 1
That’s beautiful.
I love that because honestly, that’s the part that we often will set big goals, will often set like 3 year goals, five year goals, 10 years even, right?
And we’ll kind of sit there like this is where we’re going, this is how we’re going to do it.
But those breakdowns never happen.
When we do, like when we create a commercial, for example, we do like what’s known as a work back schedule.
55:02
Well, we’re actually turning around and say here’s our end result.
This is the TV commercial that goes out and here are all the blocks and all the milestones in between to make that happen.
So you’re kind of doing like a work back schedule for a portion of the project in so many ways.
55:18
Embracing Growth, Resilience, and Fractional Executive Support
Yeah, yeah, it is exactly that.
Start with the end in mind.
So there’s the end in mind.
Then kind of working back from it and just being, as you said with your TV commercial, being realistic about what can be done as well.
We, we know that certain things take time and although your clients will try and pressure you to get things done more quickly and the best thing you can do is kind of know that being realistic, this is what it actually takes.
55:37
And so pushing back and being very clear about that.
And let’s face it, I mean, we’ve all got three-year pictures.
We’ve all got but that we don’t know what’s going to happen in three years time.
Let’s not kid ourselves.
The way the rate of change in this world at the moment, I don’t think we’re ever gonna know what’s gonna happen at the end of 90 days.
55:56
It alone in three years time, you know?
Yeah.
55:58
Speaker 1
I had the biggest plans in 2019, and I was like, 2020 is gonna be my year.
And I was a freelance photographer at the time.
It was one of the best years that I ever had.
And I was going into what I knew was going to be the next best year that I ever had.
And then everything changed, you know, and like that business, you know, I feel.
56:16
But the, the, the part that’s the most comforting is the fact that even with like a catastrophic fail, like your business collapses, there’s still an option to regroup, to rebuild.
56:32
And you’re kind of really have shown that, you know, it’s kind of like a phoenix, right?
Like you come out of those ashes and you get reborn with all this knowledge and all this, like, you know, scars from the business before, but then you come out stronger and better.
56:48
And I feel that’s a definite thing that everyone can latch on to as they listen to.
This is like, yes, business is hard and it can change and it can be difficult.
But ultimately, if you can position yourself in the right way, if you can identify the right goals, and if you can identify how people, you know, kind of grow their business, then you can really start to, you know, kind of develop your business into something that you can be proud of and can grow into.
57:15
Do you find that the businesses that are making it other ones who have been exceptionally clear on their story and how they resent it to the world?
57:29
Speaker 2
Yeah, I do believe that that is absolutely true.
I think you’ve got to have that clarity about where you’re headed.
And so I think that that’s without a doubt one of the most important things.
But they’re also the ones who’ve had some bumps along the way, as you just said.
I mean, I think you learn more from that.
We learn more from our failures than we do from our successes in some respects.
57:45
And so having a few bumps on the way is not a bad thing.
It it helps us, it helps shape us.
So funnily enough, 2019 I had an event centre and we had just turned around to start to make profit for the first time in two years and we were super excited about our brand new building that was twice the size and half, $1,000,000 worth of lease in a year.
58:06
And yeah, then 2020 hit.
58:10
Speaker 1
It’s incredible, isn’t it?
And so I’m hearing multiple businesses in your life, right?
Yeah.
So like, as as a business owner who runs one business and feels like that’s, you know, 140% of my energy, how do you get it to the point where you can actively entertain multiple businesses and not go crazy and not lose your shit?
58:33
Like how do you get to that point?
58:35
Speaker 2
Being really clear about the role that you play in it.
So I have got three businesses at the moment.
One I am just at a governance level, don’t get involved at all in day-to-day.
The second one and the visionary only.
And so therefore my role as just as visionary, I’ve completely let go of that business to be run by other people, which has been scary and but we’re you know, and and I’m not perfect.
58:54
I still gotta jump in and throw a few of seagull shits around the place occasionally, but generally I’m getting better at it.
And then I’ve got my EOS practice, which I’m very clear about the number of people I want to work with, the type of people I want to work with.
And I’m, I’m learning to say no a lot more often as well.
So it’s like, actually, does this make my boat go faster?
59:12
No, OK, I’m not going to do it.
And so I’ve gone through a bit of a, I’ve let some clients go recently that just didn’t really work for me.
And that’s OK.
But yeah, so it’s a clarity, that clarity about what role you play and therefore making sure you’re not spreading yourself too thin.
59:29
Speaker 1
When people have a fear of letting go, and especially those founders who clutched very firmly onto their businesses, what words of wisdom can you give to them to make it so they can consider loosening their grip on their businesses a little bit to allow for the growth to happen?
59:47
Speaker 2
I don’t know there’s anything that I can tell them.
I think that it’s sort of at the end of the day, yeah.
You just have a look around the world and look at those who have been successful.
And if you look at the people like Richard Branson, Elon Musk, whoever is your hero, I don’t.
Personally, like Elon Musk all that much, but I do love Richard Branson and they’ve all had to let go.
1:00:06
They’ve all brought in A2 IC, they’ve all had somebody who balances them and who actually helps them grow in that business.
And so it works.
And that’s all I can say is, and I’ve seen it for myself, I’ve experienced it myself.
It works if you let it.
There is also, I will recommend a book, it’s not my book, but there’s a book called Visionary by Marc Winters.
1:00:25
He’s a very good friend of mine.
And the book Visionary talks about the, the makeup of a visionary, like why we are visionaries, what we need to do to become a better visionary.
And I think that’s just, it’s a great book, really easy read.
We’ll really give you some insight about, yeah, what you can do to become better at that.
1:00:42
Speaker 1
I I’ve recently been reading I just finished Surrounded by Idiots.
I don’t know if you’ve read this book.
1:00:47
Speaker 2
No, I haven’t, no, but it sounds great.
1:00:49
Speaker 1
Here’s a fantastic book and so I mean, I’ve read a lot of different kind of styles of this kind of book and this is just another kind of like take on it.
Basically, it would lumps personalities into like four groups and then allows you to kind of understand what kind of personality you’re dealing with and how best to communicate with them because there’s different kind of ways to communicate with people who are more headstrong versus the more compliant.
1:01:13
And it’s like it’s got a really interesting look at how to deal with people.
And I find for me, learning some tricks like that really helped me and it it helps me to deal with the team that I have or the team that I know I want to get eventually.
1:01:31
And so I think like every, every failure I have as far as like running my business is usually based on my, um, my shortcomings as a, as a leader, right?
And it’s like how to change that within myself is, is learning through others.
1:01:49
And that’s like with the mentorship, especially in specific, the mentorship of having, I’ve just being able to understand where we can make changes in our own lives to become more clear for people.
Is that something that you kind of highly recommend as far as getting started for leader?
1:02:08
Speaker 2
Yeah, as I said to you earlier on, I think that, you know, actually whether we like it or not, like all the good stuff that we’ve created, we did create all the bad stuff.
We’ve also, it’s also our responsibility.
And so we have to look very much inwardly and go, what have I done?
And, and, and the same when you’re, you know, when you get frustrated with the person you got this person is driving me insane.
1:02:28
Reflect back and go, is it them or is it actually me?
Take the emotion out of it and go, have I actually supported them?
Have I given them what they need?
Have I taken the time to get to understand them?
Have I, you know, offered all the right resources and stuff?
It, it usually comes back to us as leaders.
1:02:43
And so unfortunately, self-awareness is probably one of the the most important things as a leader.
1:02:48
Speaker 1
I love that.
And so you’ve recently put together Sherwood Foundry, is that correct?
1:02:53
Speaker 2
That’s correct, yes.
1:02:55
Speaker 1
So tell me a little bit about that as we wrap up here.
1:02:58
Speaker 2
Yeah.
So that’s sort of it was born out of the work that we do with the OS.
Adam, Adam Harrison, my business partner and I, we do EOS, we put systems into businesses and much as we love that work, we think it’s the best system ever and we recommend everybody put it into their business matter what size you are.
We realize that, you know, that is one part of the puzzle.
1:03:15
And in order for businesses to grow, like I said, you have to have, you have to integrate change at every level.
And so that’s having the right people.
Do you have the right to I see.
So we, we offer fractional integrators into businesses that will actually help them with that two IC component.
Do you have the right support?
So we have peer groups and masterminds for visionaries, for integrators, people who, so you’ve got a peer group around you to actually, you know, keep you sane if you like.
1:03:40
We’re also do a lot of training we do and we’re looking at sort of doing some publishing stuff as well.
So all these things that will just actually help businesses grow.
And then of course the investment side as well, because at the end of the day, you need the, the help from the people and from the systems, from the processes, but also from a funding perspective as well.
1:03:59
And so like our dream, our goal is to to ensure that we can provide all that support, support in a community and a network to help those high impact businesses that want to make a difference.
1:04:11
Speaker 1
And for those listeners who are kind of new to the concept of fractional help, what does that actually look?
1:04:18
Speaker 2
Like, So what it really looks like is we have got very, very high level experience, C-Suite level people who can come in and hit the ground running.
So rather than paying, you know, a good 2C is going to cost you a fortune, let’s be honest.
But we have people who can come in fractionally and they can do half a day, one day, two days a week working in the business to help you run the business to to take you away from all that day day stuff because they’re so highly experienced and such at a high level, they can do that on a fractional basis because you don’t need a full time person in, in a smaller business.
1:04:51
You need somebody who just can hit the ground running and knows what they’re doing.
And so fractional is just about taking a big C-Suite level person, but taking a portion of them, just the amount that you need and you can ramp it up.
You can ramp it down depending what the business needs are.
1:05:05
Speaker 1
I think that’s a wonderful idea I’ve never really considered.
I’ve kind of learned about this concept in the last probably two months.
It’s like, OK, that’s a really cool concept.
One of our other guests actually, he was doing a fractional stuff as well.
And so yeah, it was really cool to hear as the kind of was explaining it too.
1:05:22
Speaker 2
And I think it’s, you know, it’s, it’s usually for a period of time, it’s not usually forever.
It’s when our fractional integrators and fractional executives come into the business, they come in, they work with you for a period of time.
And then we help you identify the person who will be able to take over, could be internally, could be externally.
And they’ll work with them to train them up as well and hand over the reins.
1:05:40
So all the work that we do, we don’t want to be with you, whatever, we want to teach you how to fish rather than fish for you.
And so it’s like, how do we help you get to a certain point so that you can then bring somebody else in to actually do that work and and make sure it’s a nice smooth transition.
1:05:54
Speaker 1
Awesome.
That’s amazing.
And for the viewers who want to reach out and get in contact and be a part of this, like, what’s the best place that they can reach you at?
1:06:04
Speaker 2
Probably on my LinkedIn profile because that’s got links to everything that I do.
So my name is fairly unique.
Deborah Chantry Taylor.
There is no other Deborah Chantry Taylor in the whole world, so if you Google me you should find me pretty easily.
1:06:18
Speaker 1
Amazing.
Thank you so much for sharing your morning with us and enjoy the day.
1:06:23
Speaker 2
Ahsha, thank you so much.
I’ve really enjoyed it.
Really appreciate it.
Written by Debra Chantry-Taylor, FBA Accredited Family Business Advisor, Certified EOS Implementer & Founder of Business Action.
Business Action is focused on helping Entrepreneurs lead better lives, through creating a better business. We have a small team of accredited family business advisors, EOS Implementers & Leadership coaches, as well as access to a huge range of advisors through our Trusted Partners Network.
